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Rebel Teachers Rising
Even before the pandemic lock-downs, American teachers from sea to shining sea reported a critical shortage of teachers within their ranks, and have watched in horror at the crippling levels of greed, arrogance, apathy, and ignorance at every level of K-12 educational governance. While embattled teachers have continued to try in vain to draw attention to the issues, our leaders have failed to acknowledge the problems at all. But since covid, the nation’s teachers have borne witness to a break neck hastening pace of this downward spiral–and a total avoidance of a conversation from our leaders.
This a-political podcast, created and produced exclusively by teachers, gets into the nitty gritty details of why teachers are leaving the profession in droves, and uncovers huge contributing structural problems baked into the teaching profession which are not discussed or understood even within the K-12 educational world, which also explain why so much of what is done in K-12 is ineffective. These desperate, passionate, highly qualified teachers use this podcast series to insert teachers forcefully into the national conversation about the critical issues plaguing K-12 education, because no one else was letting them in–a fact which belies a central thesis about the roots of the problems discussed throughout the episodes. Listeners will be gripped by the reality that without substantial reforms which empower teachers to lead the work, the inevitable result is a collapse of our very ability to effectively self-govern–a process which they argue is already well underway.
Listen as they describe the problems in teacher pay, teacher preparation requirements, special education, climate and culture, reading instruction, the false promise of existing DEI based frameworks in K-12, and the problems inherent in outsourced canned curriculums. Become a part of the solution as they outline a framework to authentically fix these problems, which require all hands on deck from both inside and outside of K-12 education.
Rebel Teachers Rising
27. A New Year's Special Edition Episode: The Healing Power of Radical Love for All Teachers
In this special New Year's episode of the Teacher Shortage Crisis podcast, hosts Amanda, Jess, and Trina come together to discuss their reflections, challenges, and goals for the coming year. The conversation covers the emotional toll of teaching, ways to replenish as educators, and the importance of radical love and community among colleagues.
They introduce a new approach to the podcast, including a rebranding to 'Rebel Teachers Rising,' and highlight their involvement with a solution framework aimed at empowering teachers to lead their profession.
The episode also touches on the Big Five personality test, revealing insights about each host's traits and how it influences their teaching and collaboration. They wrap up by offering practical advice for teachers experiencing burnout while emphasizing the need for collective action and support.
00:00 Introduction: The Teacher Shortage Crisis
01:04 New Year's Special: Caring for Rebel Teacher Souls
02:30 Reflecting on the Challenges of January
03:45 A Love-Hate Relationship with Teaching
09:27 Dealing with Interpersonal Conflicts
13:55 Books to Inspire and Reflect
16:55 Practicing Radical Love and Protection
30:05 Understanding Ourselves: The Big Five Personality Test
33:50 Scoring High on Openness
35:43 Understanding Conscientiousness
37:11 Diving into Neuroticism
46:17 Reimagining the Podcast
55:37 The Solution Framework
01:01:29 Final Thoughts and Call to Action
Resources Discussed:
Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Right by Bob Dylan
Big 5 Personality Test
The 4 Agreements
The Courage to be Disliked
What’s Your Dream
The Goddess Pose
www.rebelteachersrising.com
Petition to Save K-12 Schooling and our Precious Democracy!
Amanda: [00:00:00] Does the future of our nation and the world keep you up at night?
Jess: Are you worried that today's kids won't be able to lead our nation through the troubles ahead?
Trina: Well, so are we. We are creating a real discussion of what is actually causing the teacher shortage crisis because we know that this crisis is an existential threat.
Amanda: So we are forcefully inserting teachers voices into the conversation to tell you the whole story.
Jess: Because after years of watching decision makers who aren't even teachers, make all the wrong choices. We have turned into whistleblowers.
Trina: K-12 education is a mess. So we can either listen to teachers and clean it up or watch as our democracy crumbles. It's the Teacher Shortage Crisis podcast.
Welcome back to the podcast, [00:01:00] everybody. This is our New Year's special edition episode. I'm joined with Amanda and Jess, and we're here to talk today about a number of things that we've been thinking about as we head on into a new year and To start with we're gonna talk about how we feel like we need to care for our rebel teacher souls How we can replenish ourselves The lessons we've learned and what we want to help other people be able to know if they're also finding themselves drained in the doldrums.
January is so hard for teachers. The end is not in sight and there's not a long break coming for a long time. So it's a hard time of year for teachers, yeah? You guys would agree with that?
Amanda: No, I just want to mention to the listeners that it is, we are recording, it's January 25th.
Trina: Yeah, and we wanted to record this episode a few [00:02:00] weeks ago, but I had that horrible virus that's been going around.
The kids show up, hacking up along, not their fault. What is going on? Everybody has been so sick. This winter, and it wasn't COVID, it wasn't the flu, but it was something very bad. We think RSV, and I was sick for, uh, three, four weeks. So, this is a little late, thank you for your patience, we didn't put out an episode, uh, last week.
So, okay, to start, I had this idea, before we all get into talking about our reflections and advice for how to care for your rebel soul. I wanted us to listen to a song and so listeners, obviously we don't have the copyright to play it on the air for you. So in a moment, we're going to direct you to pause and bring it up on your favorite platform to listen to music if you're so inclined.
So you can join with us in the authentic reaction. [00:03:00] So sometimes you find a love song like a breakup song. That was obviously intended to describe people's feelings about breaking up with each other. That, to me, reflects how I feel about the teaching profession. And this song got me through all of last year, one of the hardest years I've ever had as a teacher.
And I want to play it. So we're going to pause and then I'm going to let Amanda and Jess react to it. Sound good? Okay. So the song is Don't Think Twice, It's Alright by Bob Dylan. Okay. Pause recording now and listen to the song and then jump right back into the episode. So we listened and, and I want to hear what you guys think.
So did it feel like A love hate song for teaching as much as it did to me.
Jess: I listened to the, [00:04:00] or I read the lyrics as it was going. I just went to the Bob Dylan movie. So, I uh, it was kind of funny because it's a really good movie. I highly recommend it. Um. But yeah, I was, I was reading along with it, like the lyrics to it.
I've obviously, I've heard this song a million times because I kind of, that's kind of my genre of music that I like the most, but I did write down a quote I like from it, and it said, gave her my heart, but she wanted my soul. I was like, yeah, that is teaching in a nutshell, right? Like you give and give and give so much, and it's never enough.
Like they literally want life, and then when they've gotten it, yeah. It's on to the next.
Trina: That's the line that is always the gut punch to me. I've given you everything I have. And you want, you want blood. You want skin. You want flesh. Like, I have nothing left to give. You've taken everything. There's nothing more to take here.
Amanda, what do you [00:05:00] think?
Amanda: Yeah, I feel very emotional. Uh, I think that line definitely is a gut punch. Uh, I actually found another line that really, I think it was the line that made me start crying when I was listening to it. It's, I'm on the dark side. I can't even read it without getting emotional. I'm on the dark side of the road, but I wish there was something you would do or say to try and make me change my mind and stay.
Trina: Amen. I, that one too. Like, I'm about to leave this, and no one's gonna stop me. No one is going to stop me. And, I'm alone. I'm on the dark side of the road, and no one has, no one cares. Like, that's We never did too much talking anyway. Nobody, I mean, I feel like we're talking, but nobody's listening. And so I just, that song got me through, [00:06:00] you know, like last year when stuff was as bad as it was, and I wonder if it helps another teacher to hear it.
I know it maybe makes you dwell a little bit on what's wrong. But I think it also is empowering too, and so that's why I wanted to play it. Okay, I'm curious if anybody else has a good song to really get through teaching. I have a few different songs, um, but this is the one I wound up coming back to over and over again last year.
So the first question we're talking about is how are you going to take care of yourself this year, and what has burned you out? And I know normally we do reflections at the beginning of each new school year. Okay, definitely. But I feel like when we reflect in August, we have somehow forgotten a little bit about the school year by then.
So I feel like it's really cool to stop and reflect in the [00:07:00] middle of the year. And I want to talk about one of my One of my current efforts right now to feel better and take care of myself as a rebel is to lean into loving everyone at my site because it's really easy to be magnanimous and caring here on the podcast and telling everybody that oh you should love all teachers when you are not practicing that at your site and so as a rebel More than likely all of you who identify as rebels, you're not very popular amongst the teachers or you are silently harboring deep resentment towards other teachers.
For me, it's been both and I can't live like that anymore. That's not a recipe to staying in the profession and continually Re upping your commitment to this work. Like, you can't hate everybody at your site and do this. So, I [00:08:00] want to love the teachers I've hated. And I want to let go of expectations of them.
And I want to honor the fact that everybody is on a different place in the journey. But the main thing that I think gives me the opportunity to love teachers that misunderstand me or have wronged me. And there are teachers at my current site who have done me very dirty. But, What I want to say is we're all in this mess together.
We're all in this mess together. And the tendency of everyone, especially Paolo Fieri, my, my role model, the person I try to be more like is to honor the fact that we are all oppressors and oppressed. Like we are oppressive to our students at times. And we have power and we have privilege, but also we're all deeply oppressed.
And What we're all being sort of conditioned to do is to throw each other under the bus. And I'm trying to love these people and honor the fact that [00:09:00] they are gods and goddesses. And that they deserve my admiration and respect and I just sort of meditate on that every day practicing what I preach. So I'm going to let Jess respond to that because I know we communicate through Boxer all the time and this has been coming up for Jess.
And so I'm going to let her take the conversation to the next place.
Jess: Thank you, Trina. Yeah, so I was thinking about what's been bothering me or like how I've been feeling through January and I always get really bad seasonal depression and then I start, you know, the end of a year, the beginning of a new year, I start thinking about like, what's, what's bothering me the most?
Because I definitely don't feel very happy. And one thing that, especially this year that has been getting to me a lot is I'm just like, we're midway through the year. And personalities are starting to clash at [00:10:00] school, and I'm starting to have like interpersonal conflict with people. I have some very irritating co workers, and I do vent about them.
I do get kind of mad. Uh, some of the things I feel that they do are so unbelievable, and I do think this is kind of a pattern in my life because I can remember getting mad at co workers, and it does seem like when I think about the times that I've gotten mad, it's always sort of like that mid year hump, and then at the very end of the year, Right?
Like I have these two times where it's like almost like everyone's playing nice after summer and then halfway into the year. It's like personality starts clashing and at the end of the year, it's just such an intense time that again, the personalities are clashing. So anyway, I was complaining about this one coworker.
What I complained to everyone about, like, there's probably about a dozen co workers I complain about if I'm being honest, but there's one that keeps coming up [00:11:00] again and again, and Trina said something very interesting to me that, like, I had never thought of before. She said, you know, your coworker is also dealing with this oppressive system, right?
And like they're, they're going through something like they're your every coworker, whether you get along with them or not, is in this oppressive system and is dealing with the same issue. They're all dealing with the same issues because we're all in the system together and that did make me kind of like step back instead of being like so mad at her, which I mean, if I'm being honest, I still am.
But it did make me step back and start to feel a little bit sorry for this one person, because I was like, uh, I wanted to see some of the ways that the oppressive system is probably impacting them, because of the way the school is structured. Different job titles people have and different [00:12:00] responsibilities and all the things that are supposed to be like we're supposed to be like a miracle workers at school and I think that just gets to people after a while and people react to that those pressures and different ways and some people have like really toxic behavior and that's how they're reacting to these bad things that are happening to them and they can't see sometimes that we're all under this like Um, yeah.
Some of my coworkers choose to attack each other, like find flaws, complain about each other. But really, I mean, it's the whole system we should be mad at, right? It's the oppressive system of public education and everything that it's done to us as a whole. Like, and so I'm, I'm trying to see it as like, okay, this person who I'm just so done with done, done, done.
I wish they could hear this right now. I'm just so done with this one person, but I, I do, I can step [00:13:00] back now after Trina said that I was like, Oh my gosh, you're right. I mean, I'm oppressed. She is oppressed. We're all being oppressed in the system. And I did start to have a little bit of compassion and I was at least able to See exactly like when I took myself out of the equation as the person who's constantly irritated by this rude rudeness that I'm dealing with, like, I did kind of like I took myself out and I was like, I was thinking, wow.
They're dealing with a lot too. And I was able to kind of like, if I was just looking into this school, seeing what's happening, how are they being oppressed? What's happening to them? And that became really clear. It was like, wow, I can kind of see now that we're all, so we're all in the same, we're all in the same system together.
We're all being oppressed and everyone's dealing with that oppression in different ways. So that was my. One of my big ahas. Now, other things I'm doing to just try to, like, work through my feelings and [00:14:00] get over things, and I do this every January, I read a ton of books. So, I thought I'd mention some of the books.
Just gotta grab my phone off the floor as I threw it across the room. I read a lot of books to try to gain a little clarity. On my life and books don't always give you all the answers, but sometimes they can present a different perspective. Like Trina presented this different perspective to me, and I'm always just looking at, like, how can I see things differently to improve, you know, my viewpoint, my mood, my life.
Right? I'm just looking for ideas. So, anyway, Um, here's some of the books. I just thought I'd recommend them to you guys out there. They're really, they're pretty good. Uh, the first one, I read this the, I read this on New Year's Day and this is like the number one most requested or, or recommended book in Reddit threads.
I actually went to this one. There were 5, 000 book recommendations. And this one [00:15:00] just came up again and again. And it's, it's an oldie but a goodie. I'm sure there's like some problematic things in it that I don't even know about because this is my first experience with it and it's been out for 20 years, but it's called the four agreements and it's kind of cool.
It's just like a way to. It's a way to live your life and to see life a little differently, and the four agreements are being impeccable with your word, not taking anything too personally, not making assumptions about people, and always trying your best, and it's a short read. A lot of people live by it.
And it did really, it was a nice New Year's Day read. I really liked it. And then a couple other ones, like I got this calendar and it's all about libraries and books and every like seventh day it recommends a new book to read that's just random and bizarre. One of the books that recommended was The Goddess Pose by Michelle Goldberg.
And it's all about the woman who brought yoga. To the [00:16:00] United States to North America and it's and she lived a very long life and introduced like this whole new way of thinking and being and and then my last one. Well, I got 2 more the courage to be disliked. It's pretty good because I need to get over that myself.
Like, I need to learn how to be disliked. And it's really, it's weird. It's not exactly what you think, but it's, it's strange, but I like it. It's forcing me to think of things I never thought of before. And then the last one is What's Your Dream by Simon Squibb. This one just came out and it's really fun.
It's this guy who goes viral on TikTok for asking people, what's your dream? And then he asked them, how can I help it become a reality? And he loans the money and he gives them things so they can make their dreams come true. So those are the four books I'm letting kind of inspire the first part of my year.
Trina: The way that you are able to afford grace to other people that have wronged [00:17:00] you. Is not just the recognition that They're a part of an oppressive system like you, but it's about getting curious about where their resistance is coming from and posing questions, um, rather than lecturing them. That's always been my problem is I've lectured other teachers and I'm like, you should see this.
You, why don't you know this? Whereas with my kids. The kid, I give them infinite grace, infinite patience. Why then can I not afford it to my coworkers? Like I've been extraordinarily impatient in the years past with my coworkers. And then also like basically CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy to retrain my brain.
Any authentic opportunity that arises in my work life to praise my coworkers, I use. It's got to be authentic. It can't be phony. It's got to be about something they did, not who they are. Um, and then also, I practice radical protection of them. And I don't feel [00:18:00] responsible for them, but I do feel protective of them.
And I won't let anybody come for them. So, and I keep, I keep upping my commitment in those ways to them. And it makes me happier. It doesn't mean I'm not mad at them. And it doesn't mean I forgive them or excuse them, but it means I'm allowed to coexist with them and keep finding new ways to work with them.
And that is really what we need to do. Uh, I also want to segue to my big takeaway from leading a lot of projects in K 12 in my site or in my district, my current one, my prior ones that were very innovative and new. And people didn't want them at first, but then later were like, Oh, this is cool. I'm gonna jump on this bandwagon.
And then me not getting credit for the work, right? So, here's why you need to take credit for your work. Rebel teachers, you're the innovators. You're the ones pushing the envelope. And you're not necessarily or [00:19:00] probably very much unpopular with your peers. And so the way to get your big innovative projects.
Up and running is to sort of, uh, be like Macbeth's wife, right? And whisper in his ear and get him to, uh, believe it's his idea, the leaders. And that's what I've done in the past. The problem is that a You, the rebel teacher, you need the social capital of your good ideas having worked. Why? Because you're going to immediately spend that social capital down on the next important thing that needs to happen at your site.
You need to be believed. So you need everyone to know that the thing that everyone loves, like in my instance, we have student unions over marginalized identities. And I needed for everyone to know that I started that because I'm also pushing us in ways that Are leading towards important changes, and I need for people to know that stuff I've done before has worked, but there's another reason.
There's another practical reason why you want credit [00:20:00] for your work. It's because you are the originator of the idea, and you need to be in charge of the implementation of your ideas, because there's a million little details. I always say the angels are in the details, and if you are not seen as the originator, they're going to defer to someone else who isn't going to do it right.
So if you want it done. Correctly, you need credit for your work. And it, and also, of course, the third, you deserve it. We're not martyrs, for God's sakes, we're teachers. This idea that we're supposed to be martyrs, and who cares if you get credit for your idea? Doesn't it just matter, Trina, that the thing happened?
No! That's not true, for those reasons. So those are my big takeaways for this year. Okay, Amanda, tell us about your ways that you are preparing yourself. For 2025 and what has burned you out in the past.
Amanda: Sure, uh, I love everything that you all are saying, and I, I, I do need one of those books I want to read that you, that you mentioned, Jess, the one about, oh, [00:21:00] the courage to be disliked.
I need to read that immediately. Uh, yeah, because I think that in the past, something that has burned me out. has been just really, really this, like, need to be liked, um, by my co workers and this feeling like, um, very sensitive to their, uh, words and judgments and, uh, and often it's led me to act to. In ways and Trina and I used to be on the same team that weren't really aligned with who I actually am, I guess, and there's this term I think a lot of people are using these days called masking, and I think we all I mean teachers have to mask all day.
Every day, you know, we have to pretend that we are okay all the time for our kids. We have to be brave and we have to be, [00:22:00] uh, you know, patient and even if we don't feel very well, uh, we have to smile, you know, and, and try. And so I, I just think that I, uh, because I am, sort of a recovering workaholic. Uh, uh, I'm an overachiever.
I just want to do my very best in everything that I do, especially in my job. Um, It's, it's, it's, it's just, it's caused burnout. Uh, just that, that frame of mind. And so last year, 2024, I love this idea of picking a word of the year. Uh, and so that's something that I think that has helped me because I'm so disorganized in my own mind and like.
I get so passionate and excited about things that sometimes I feel like my passions and excitement are what are [00:23:00] controlling everything. And um, and so I overcommit and say yes to too many things. And so my word last year, it just really Uh, helped a lot, give me direction, because I have ADHD. I was diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago, so my word last year was no.
So, I just really was trying hard to practice saying no to everything I possibly could. Um, I mean I failed at times with doing that, um. and kind of forgot that that was my word. Um, but yeah, I really cut a lot of things out. And then this year I've decided that my word is intention. So I don't want to say no to everything, you know, like, but I want to say yes to things.
Intentionally, not because I'm just super excited and passionate about it, um, or because I want to prove myself or be liked or whatever, [00:24:00] uh, and so that's, that's my word for this year and, um, And also, uh, just discovering meditation and mindfulness practices and I've been in this program that I'm graduating from actually this month.
I'm graduating from a two year program to become a meditation teacher. And this is secular meditation. It's not, um, related to Buddhism, even though that, you know, that is where this came from, these ideas. But, um, I just, And I actually learned, you know, Lior, Trina, I, I give
Trina: Lior, I hope he doesn't mind us mentioning him on the podcast.
I love you, Lior.
Amanda: He's a school counselor at our, he was a school counselor at Trina and I's, um, school. And he's now the counselor at my school. And he, like, I don't know, five years ago or something. He, uh. during a [00:25:00] staff meeting played, uh, headspace, like 10 minute meditation. And at the time I was so mad.
Like I thought it was such a waste of time. And, and that was the point in my life when I was just working way too hard to avoid my problems. And so like a week later, I think I was just I was so upset. I was so stressed out and I was like, maybe I should try that meditation thing again. And I like downloaded this headspace app and I like went into my closet and laid down in my closet in my classroom and did headspace.
And then that became this practice and, and it became this weird way of just saying, no, I'm not gonna. Wait, I can't plan right now. I can't, I can't, you know, I just want to, I need, um, I need 10 minutes to just wait, wait,
Trina: wait, wait. So you're saying that because ever since I've been close to you, you've been this guru of meditation [00:26:00] and mindfulness, but you're saying that you first got this from Lior.
Yes, that is right. I never knew that story. Does he know the impact he had on you?
Amanda: I, I think I've told him, but maybe I should tell him again because
Trina: that's when
Amanda: I discovered meditation and I'll just wrap up by saying when, when I started to meditate, I mean, it was hard, uh, to make time for it. Cause I always thought like, oh, you don't know, that's just a waste of time.
You know, like that's always, or I can't do this or like, what's the point? Like it's not even helping. Um, but I think through that, I realized that. I can actually control my own mind. Um, and that's not what meditation's about. It's just about noticing. So a lot of people think it's about, like, stopping your thoughts, but what it's actually about is just noticing them.
So, for example, noticing the negativity you have towards your co workers, noticing the biased thoughts [00:27:00] you have about your students, like, oh, they're lazy, they're this, they're that, you know, and noticing it and being like, huh. I wonder where that came from.
Trina: Right.
Amanda: Is that true? Like, do, do I, does this help?
Is this a helpful thought, or is this hurting me? And so just this idea that I can actually, um, be in charge of my own thoughts, and like, like, like these ideas that, you know, teachers have to be self Sacrificing, kind, workaholics, never sit at their desk, uh, always take work home because if you don't take work home, you're never gonna get the grading done that you need and your kids need feedback and all these thoughts, I've basically put them, you know, out and just kind of like analyzed them, like, is this true?
Like, is, you know, like, do I really want to believe this? Like, my co workers are Are really oppressed in this system and like gosh, I feel for them all as much as they and so [00:28:00] meditation has very much helped me take care of myself and and being in the woods with my dog
Trina: and being in the woods with your dog because you're a you're big on hiking in nature.
Yes. And, uh, you know, taking care of, we need to take care of our physical bodies and we have a future episode on how much teaching affects our physical and psychological health. Um, but I also want to say too, I know you and I have talked about this quite a bit, is that because I have a history of trauma in my childhood.
Um, and so I had to embark on a therapy journey, right? And so I was able to apply the lessons of therapy in my practice of how I come to terms with these other, other difficult people and they perceive me as difficult. You know what I mean? Like, we all think we're the hero of our own story. Really, I'm someone else's antagonist.
I know it. I know that I am. When you're a rebel teacher, you're someone else's [00:29:00] worst nightmare. Like, you're slowing down everything. You're constantly butting in and challenging everything. And everybody just wants to get through their day. And can you blame them? Right? I'm still not going to stand for the status quo.
I'm still not going to Not challenge everything, but I have to do it in a way that is as loving as possible because that's what's effective and preserves us for the long run. You know, like, for me, I've noticed a lot of teachers, um, what they do is they just sort of ghost you like they are unable to have difficult conversations.
They make a promise to you. They get on your bandwagon of wanting to do things, and then they just sort of evaporate, and I'm like, are you a real person? Do you not have the skills to communicate? Have you changed your mind? Do you remember the promises that? It's just where they're at. It's just their coping skills and, and trying to, you know, respect where they are.
Radical humility and radical love and radical [00:30:00] community.
Amanda: For yourself, too.
Trina: For myself, yeah. Self compassion. So. We all took a personality test. Amanda, I'm gonna have her explain it in just a minute, but the Results and I'm kind of like super about these things like they're they're a little too superficial at times.
They don't always completely Explain who I am, but we saw something Radical in our results the three of us saw something radical in our results, and then we understood why we're doing the podcast together, what the three of us all have in common, and it let us reimagine the podcast for 2025. So first, Amanda, will you explain the big five personality test?
Amanda: Uh, sure. It is, uh, very, um, Like pretty [00:31:00] unknown personality test. I feel like, like Myers Briggs is really popular. Uh, but it's used by like, uh, the psychology world. Uh, I think it's probably one of the most common tools used, uh, by like actual psychologists, you know, um, and therapists and things. But, uh, I remember the big five using this acronym called OCEAN, and so there's five traits, and they're each on a spectrum.
So you can be, uh, like on a scale of 0 to 100. So 100 is like you're way above average in the personality trait, and then 0 is, you know, you're below average, and then I think in the middle is average, right? And so the OCEAN stands for O is Openness. Okay. And I'll describe what openness is in a minute. C is conscientiousness, E is extroversion.
A is [00:32:00] agreeableness, and N is neuroticism. And we could put a link to this personality test. You can actually take it for free and get results. And then you, you, you have to pay money to get like the actual like, uh, more detailed description of each, um. Each of your traits, but particularly openness. I mean, I score really high above average in all of these, including neuroticism, which is not good.
Uh, being really highly neurotic is not necessarily a good thing. So yeah, I'm surprisingly high in all of them, but openness is an individual's tendency to think in complex, abstract ways. People who are high in openness are abstract thinkers, while people who are low in openness are concrete thinkers. Uh, so, and we enjoy talking and thinking about lots of different concepts, making connections, uh, to things that other [00:33:00] people don't see.
And, and so some of the traits are creative, unconventional, imaginative, original, artistic, and people low in openness isn't a bad thing. Uh, they're more practical, uh, conservative, like habitual, traditional, um, and these aren't bad, right? Um, none of this is bad. And I think also one of, I think one of the really good things you can do to take care of yourself is to understand yourself.
You know, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? Um, and knowing that I'm highly neurotic.
Trina: Yeah, before we get into the other five, um, can you tell us what is like the normal score for openness in the general population before you reveal our scores.
Amanda: I think it's like around 50, right? Like that would be average.
And so I scored 94. Whoa. And what was Jess's score? Yes. [00:34:00] I don't remember, but it was in the nineties. It was there. Yeah, it was like 92 maybe. I don't remember either.
Trina: And mine was, I took it twice because I paid to get the full report, which I'm actually toying around with just posting the report on our website.
Like, I don't care. Read what it says. Um, first it was 98 and the second time I took it was 100. For openness. A hundred. So, for, what I want to say about that is, the three of us are crazy high in openness. And I think it's deeply frustrating to all three of us to be around people who are not open. And that's been my problem is, is my team at my site would probably all score low on openness, particularly low, I think, I think our profession does not draw in people with openness, because it is so it demeans you if you try to be open, it doesn't want openness, it wants complicity.[00:35:00]
And so if you wind up Being really high on openness, like we were talking about it being a homework of our neurodivergency, right? So I think it's very, very draining for us to not be around people who can, who can go with us on that intellectual or emotional journey of exploration. Um, and so because the three of us have such high openness.
It explains why we're together doing the podcast, but it, I think, as Amanda was saying, helps us to understand each other. And so we are in, well, before I move on to the next thing that I was going to have Jess explain, do you want to talk more about your other areas, Amanda, that in them?
Amanda: Well, I don't think we can post these reports on our website because it's like, uh, copyright, you know, this is all of their, uh, and we should definitely, uh, uh, put the link to the website just to give them credit for.
This information. It's a really great [00:36:00] website. We'll put it in the show notes. Uh, but yeah, so conscientiousness is like, uh, person's, uh, tendency to like achieve goals actually. So like you'd think that it would be. Um, you know, kindness or something, but like they're very hardworking. They have a lot of willpower, which is interesting because I have a lot of willpower sometimes, but not all the others, but maybe that's ADHD delay.
Gratification. I don't feel like I resonate with that, but so high in conscientiousness were orderly, yes, very organized. How can I be ADHD if I'm organized? Well, that's another episode. Dependable, determined, ambitious, dutiful. People low in conscientiousness are more spontaneous, impulsive, disorganized, adaptable, kind of ha, ha, ha, haphazard.
Trina: Adaptable. That's interesting. So if you have high in conscientious, you can be more rigid. And I think that I am. So what were our scores [00:37:00] with conscientiousness? Um, and I'll take
Amanda: that one. uh, mine was 79.
Trina: It might take, it might take too long to go through all five of the big five. What do you think? Which one.
Let's talk about.
Amanda: Talk about neuroticism. Okay.
Trina: Let's do it.
Amanda: Because a lot of teachers are really agreeable, you know? Uh, okay. So Jess, your conscientiousness. Do you care if I share yours? Is 35. So Jess is below average in conscientiousness. Um, Trina, you're 81 and I'm 79. So Trina, you're the most conscientiousness of all, I'm saying that wrong, of all of us.
Trina: Hmm. I'm the most conscientious. Well, um, I can be, I expect a lot from myself and I feel very beholden to honoring my commitments, but I don't, I think you two are too. But so what, what's the, what's the public's average score on conscientious?
Amanda: [00:38:00] The same thing. It's a scale from 0 to 100. Oh, so it's 50? 50 is always the average, yeah.
Um, and, yeah. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Actually, there is a bar that says 55.
Trina: Okay, so I do think that that's where I've gotten into trouble of, like, people who aren't conscientious freak me out. Like, how can you have said you were going to do this and not show up? Like, you promised the students this and now you're not doing it.
Like, how do you sleep at night? Like, oh my god. Um, and so that brings me to the neuroticism score because I scored lower than average on neuroticism and lower than the two of you, I think. But what I want to say about that is that I don't think that's a fixed number because I've worked really hard on letting go, like, if you don't like me, okay, I'm not going to lose sleep about it.
Um, if you cannot track what we said we were going to do, like, that's just where you're at. Like, I had to get to a very low [00:39:00] place and rebuild myself back up to be able to grant this much grace to other people. And it's been very liberating for me. Like, I'm in a lot more. I'm in a better space, but I think if I had taken the test just two or three years ago, I would have been off the chart for neuroticism.
So, share your thoughts on it, Amanda and Jess.
Amanda: Well, let me say what it is. I mean, I feel like I should describe what it actually is. First, so neuroticism describes an individual's response to stress. Neurotic people are susceptible to anxiety, depression, anger, and other negative emotions when subjected to stressful conditions.
So, uh, people high in neuroticism are vulnerable, unstable, anxious, moody, and self conscious. Which, Trina, I don't know if I agree with Trina that this changes. I think it stays pretty s So, um, I don't know if that's stable because this is your personality, but I know there's psychologists that kind of argue over like, when is the [00:40:00] personality formed, you know, like, and it does form like, I think it's kind of solidified when you're about 10 or 11, but, um, And then people low on neuroticism are stable, resilient, self confident, carefree, optimistic.
Um, which I'm those things too. It's just, I think that, uh, it also talks about how neuroticism is kind of connected to, uh, it's a corollary of extroversion. So extroversion describes the frequency and depth of positive emotions. Whereas neuroticism is more like your Tendency to experience negative emotions like fear, anxiety, sadness, anger, or worthlessness.
Uh, Jess, what do you think? Uh,
Jess: well, I try not to think, you know, whenever possible. So I know, I know when I took the When I took the quiz, I mean, there's just, I'm kind of like in a very meta place. And so there was a lot of questions on the quiz. And [00:41:00] I do think like, sometimes like your personal mood can impact things like this, like, cause it's hard to step outside of yourself and see, you know, like, if you're having a really bad day, like there were a lot of questions that I was just like, who cares?
I'm in the middle. You know, so, I mean, and I noticed on 3 of them, I'm like, you know, like, I'm in the average zone, you know, a little bit. So, I, I don't know. I mean, I think probably to get an accurate reading and I've done this before with different personality tests where I take them, like, 3 times, like, I just.
Points in the month to get like a better read like I because I totally was agreeing with the openness Uh score and there was a lot there were a lot of questions about art museums and I love art museums Favorite place in the world. Like that's all I do when I go Is I just go to museums and art museums in particular.
So, of course, I'm like, really high. I'm like, art [00:42:00] museum. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. All the way over. And I'm thinking, you know, like, that influenced the openness score. And then there were some things that I was just kind of like, eh, you know, I guess I feel in the middle about this. Like, I didn't have, like, a, Push or pull that day.
So I don't know. I mean, I, I haven't really dug into my results that much. I think I generally like for conscientiousness, I feel a little disorganized a lot of times, just like either in my thoughts or in my feelings. And so I was probably choosing more of those. answers, even though like, I mean, if you saw my workspace, it's like really neat and tidy, but like my home space, not so much.
Amanda: Um, I don't know. Can I just tell you something? So I just Googled, like, does, does the big five personality score change over time? And this is based on AI. Okay. So this is what Google says. Yes, according to research, a person's big five personality score, including [00:43:00] neuroticism, can change over time, with most studies showing a trend towards decreasing neuroticism as people age, meaning they generally become less neurotic as they get older.
However, significant life events can influence changes in neuroticism levels. And by the way, this could be totally inaccurate. It's AI's answer. Okay.
Trina: And also this, this test is just a test made by people. Like it's flawed. But I will say this, I am like, what, eight years older than you guys. And in a significant point of our lives, like going through my forties has been a revolution of myself.
Like I'm so grateful for the past eight years. I'm a very different person on the neuroticism scale. Now that I was then so there's that like I, I, I really and truly believe that these eight years that I have on you is why my score is lower and I think, but I think too, that like, if you're going to stay in the rebel world [00:44:00] and like, that's what this whole podcast is going to be about from going forward and what it always really has been about is like, if you're going to be a rebel teacher, how are you going to continue without giving up the rebel work?
And it's the journey that I've been on. Of letting it go and not caring so much about what other people think, but also loving people as they are. You know what I mean?
Amanda: Well, and yourself, loving yourself as you are. Yes. And I think the reason that I'm so high right now, I guess, in this point in my life, 73 is what I scored out of 100.
Trina, you scored 42. Jess, you scored, you care if I say? 62. You're so open. Thank you for letting me share. 62. 5. And I think that I am really high right now. It's because I have just within, you know, the last five years started to uncover what's inside. And [00:45:00] so like I feel very raw. I feel like a open wound a bit, and I think this is what you're describing that you went through in your 40s,
Trina: Trina.
Amanda: Um, yeah.
Trina: Well, I mean, your sort of social justice journey and really digging in to fixing problems that you see around you is new, right? And so you are still a person who doesn't want to be disliked, or I'm going to say, Maybe avoids conflict. It's quite possible. And so you're heavily invested in the reputation that you have.
And I get it. You know, we've been able to leverage your reputation from time to time. But like, you can't keep being true to yourself and well liked by everyone. Like those two things just aren't going to coexist at the same time.
Amanda: I agree. And I, like, my meditation mentor, she said, uh, she said, You need to disappoint more people.
Trina: Amen.
Amanda: And that sounds so counterintuitive, [00:46:00] like, but I remember that, like, but anyway, so what else do we want to say about The Big Five before we move on? Because I know this is a long episode.
Trina: Yeah, yeah, um, anything you want to add, Jess, to The Big Five? Because it's set, we're, okay, cool, because we're segueing to What we're about to do.
So I'm going to let Jess explain the windfall we had of the University of Washington Graduate Department of Communications and how our radical openness is allowing us to reimagine the podcast. So we are about to relaunch a bunch of stuff. I'm going to let Jess take it away.
Jess: Oh, boy, I did not prepare anything for this.
Well, anyway, Trina is the person who kind of brought this into our life and there's a really cool program at the University of Washington for marketing students, graduate students, and they help, they help nonprofits and they help. They help, uh, organizations [00:47:00] kind of with. Things they might need, you know, like to practice their skill set before they, they get, um, hired somewhere they volunteer hours of their life.
And right now we have a volunteer graduate student named Sophia. She is so amazing. One knows of any project manager internships out there. Please let us know because we need to get Sophia an internship. Anyway, she's designing our podcast website right now and we meet with her every Tuesday night. She spends about five hours a week helping us with, uh, the website and helping us with logos and whatnot.
Trina, what else did we want to add? Well,
Trina: can I, can I, let's be honest and frank. Okay. So I designed the original logo website and I am a weirdo. Like. I am definitely a goth punk weirdo. So, I want you to be just totally honest here, Jess. Cause Jess, we had to pick titles. So Jess's PR, the [00:48:00] problems you were having getting people to the podcast.
Just go take it away, Jess.
Jess: Yeah, so I share on my social media. I mean, I have like a medium platform. I have a little over 40, 000 followers. And so that's where I'm used to sharing my stuff. And when I joined the podcast, and when I was first a guest on the podcast, I always put up like, look, look at this podcast I'm on.
And then I can go look at metrics in my Instagram. Like when I share a story or share a post, I can see like who's reacting to it. Who's clicking a link, like if I link the podcast, I can see how many people have clicked the link. Right. And so I've gotten to know my audience over the years and I'm sharing this podcast, which I personally am drawn to.
And I would like you to know that my wedding colors were black and red and our, our podcast. Well, like our logo is black and red, and it does kind of remind me of [00:49:00] vampire colors, right? I know, you've
Trina: been calling it the vampire podcast.
Jess: I mean, that's what I'm like looking at it, and but I like that, you know, I like that.
I am personally drawn to it. It's probably why I said yes to being on it to begin with. But I'm looking at my metrics and I'm like, why is nobody clicking on my on this new podcast? Like why aren't they like I keep sharing the podcast with the links and I and I go and check how many people are clicking the link and like nobody is clicking the link.
It's like. Three to five people sometimes click the podcast link out of sometimes a couple thousand people. And I'm like, this doesn't make any sense because I could go and share like the ugliest lamp in the world and I'll get at least 50 or 60 people to click on the ugly lamp. I've done this before.
I've shared some real hideous. Up just to see what people would do. Right. And so I'm like, what is going on with the [00:50:00] podcast? So anyway, I did bring up this whole, you know, maybe it's the color palette. Maybe it's a little too dark and heavy. I mean, one, the, the podcast has the name crisis in it and how many people want to deal with a crisis every day, you know, click on that.
Another thing is like, I'm looking at the color. And I'm like, Oh, it is like, it looks like, I mean, it's black and red. I mean, if you added a pair of vampire fangs to it, it would go in, it would go in gray. It would look good. Right? So I'm like, maybe it's the color scheme. Maybe, you know what we think is cool, you know, uh, like in our little group, maybe that's not like attracting people to want to click on the link.
That has been like a really big question that's been on my mind is like, why can't I get people? Are people just not in the mood for a podcast? But then I see these other podcasts popping up, going viral, other people starting podcasts, people excited about podcasts. And then I'm like, well, what, what [00:51:00] is different about ours?
And that's been my main question.
Trina: Yeah, and So I mean, what you're telling me is that people aren't even giving it a chance. They're looking at the link and, and just saying no to the link. So like, visually, we're reimagining the entire color palette, a new logo. And then just today, we had an epiphany about the title.
So, Amanda. Do you want to talk about what the new titles we're throwing around look like? Because you came up with it and I was like, dang, that's good. Because we want to, because really the teacher shortage crisis podcast, and I've known this since almost the very beginning, is really just a conversation from teachers about what's wrong in K 12.
Right? Um, but it's framed through the lens of, like, why doesn't anyone want to teach in our profession? And thank God that was the lens because it brought me to Paul Bruno's work to understand the bigger problems of local control and all of that. But it's not bringing [00:52:00] people in, and I don't know that it completely accurately explains what our podcast is about, because a lot of times we're just talking about problems that we know are not attracting teachers into the profession.
But the correlation is kind of vague. So, Amanda, take it away. What is our new title suggestion?
Amanda: Because of Sophia, because she's so smart and amazing.
Trina: She is.
Amanda: Uh, from the University of Washington. Did we mention she's getting her master's? She's in a graduate program and, um, Yeah, she's, she's really helping us a lot with thinking about who's our audience, who are the people that we really want to be listening to this podcast, um, who do we want to attract?
And so we got into this long conversation about like, well, who are these people that we really would like to be coming to our website, to be coming to our podcast? And I think we all [00:53:00] realized. They're rebel teachers and you've mentioned this multiple times throughout this episode kind of hinting at this and then so we were like rebel teachers.
That's what it could be called. But then I thought, okay, but I think we need more here. We need more. Um, what are rebel teachers doing? Uh, and so I went to my trusty old friend chat GPT, uh, Um, and I said, you know, I gave chat GPT, I had a little conversation, you know, describing our, our work and, um, and then I said, like, I really want the phrase rebel teachers to be in the title.
And then one of them stood out among all the others. And it was done, did it on rebel teachers rising. Isn't that beautiful? I love it. The alliteration and then, but we're going to keep the subtitle of, um, what's the subtitle again, Trina? The
Trina: Teacher Shortage Crisis [00:54:00] Exposed.
Amanda: Yep. So Rebel Teachers Rising, The Teacher Shortage Crisis Exposed.
So we're going to change our domain name, I guess. We're in the middle. We are a work in progress. Oops.
Trina: Yeah, and we're gonna have to, like, edit a lot of episodes that have Teacher Shortage Crisis podcast in there. Um, cause now we're Rebel Teachers Rising, which I think rolls off the tongue. Better to be perfectly honest.
Um, so we have to change our domain. We have to change our email. We have to change a lot of things. Um, and we have to, we have to edit some of the, a lot of audio, honestly, in our earlier episodes, but because of our openness score and because of Jess's like knowledge about marketing and PR, because she has a background in business too, like, so we, we were willing to make these changes.
to be a better bridge between teachers and the podcast. So that's what we're doing. If you have any [00:55:00] input, we want to hear it, but we are in the midst of quasi rebranding of the entire website and creating from scratch our social media because we haven't had one. And, and to be perfectly honest, the three of us have been kind of happy just sort of making this just for ourselves.
Um, But, you know, we need, we need to move into the next phase and we have this help from the University of Washington. So we're taking advantage of it and we are definitely going to use the new logo design that Sophia created and that we're tweaking a little bit to move into the next phase.
Amanda: Well, and I think a lot of us, let's just talk about the last, uh, topic, which is the solution framework, and that's why we're doing all of this in the first place, right?
Like, because we want to implement the solution framework. So who wants to talk about that?
Trina: I will. So our pad, our podcast gets into the weeds, but what I [00:56:00] want a solution framework is, and we were just having a conversation this morning about we just keep describing problems and not solving them. And that's a very valid critique.
Okay, we do talk here and there about what some changes could look like. But the thing is, is we are three white women. And sadly, we're the typical demographic of our profession, but besides being only one gender and one ethnicity, we're just three people too. So the solution framework is about creating a space where all teachers get to make solutions to all the problems together.
Right, including addressing our problems of diversity in the workforce, but so really just looking and this to me, it started in a couple of ways. One, I was reading Diane Ravitch's scholarship where she was talking about, hey, you know, teachers are the [00:57:00] only credentialed workforce in America that don't get to lead their own profession.
And I was like, really? Huh? And I went to looking at the American Medical Association website, the National Realtors. I can't remember the exact phrasing of their group, but all of these groups that have. We have to do some scholarship. You have to do some credentialing. You have to be board certified, whatever they are in some form of governance over themselves.
And of course, they're beholden to state and federal regulations. Okay, we are not. And the reason for that. Is all the way back to the beginning of our profession, which we were founded in the 1830s to be intentionally for women. And the idea there is women at the time were biologically inferior, intellectually inferior, couldn't own property, couldn't sign contracts.
And we created a profession for these people back then that we never revisited. So it's a really paternalistic stance around [00:58:00] us that intentionally excludes us from the leadership over our own work. And we have, we're so institutionalized that we just allow people who are not current teachers to make the decisions about teaching, about what it means to be a well prepared teacher, what it means to be a good current teacher and their observation.
We let, um, The corporate America make money hand over fist off our own preparation requirements, because the idea here is we were never supposed to be given an income that actually creates self sufficiency, because the idea is that you can pay a woman a third of the salary of men because they have a man's 10 income to go into tandem with them.
It's really correcting that original sin and putting us on an even playing ground with other credentialed workforces. But then also there's this other problem of because teachers aren't allowed to govern our own space, who has been governing it? It's sort of a rudderless ship of [00:59:00] weird local control and piecemeal governance that is really impossible to hold accountable.
And that is really what Paul Bruno's scholarship Has really exposed. So we need a national professional body of us governing spaces. We need to be released for all are part of our day for a period of time to serve at all levels of leadership. And we need to be sitting toe to toe with equal power with administrators, because the second you leave teaching.
You become less and less relevant with each passing day on a number of important things in our world. So, you know, it's, it's about strengthening the U. S. Department of Education. And people will say, but you already have the National Education Association, or you already have the American Federation for Teachers.
These are lobbying groups. They don't actually shape what's going on policy wise. They don't actually shape the practices. They don't have real power. They have the power to persuade. [01:00:00] With their collective group numbers. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creating a whole new professional designation inside of K 12.
Something akin to like teacher leader. I don't know what you want to call it. We have got to be able to lead our profession from inside. We shouldn't have to leave it. To lead it. That is really all of the problems we are seeing are coming from people who don't know what they're doing and also who've lost their tenure and they're beholden to local politics.
We are the only ones that can do the true right thing here. And will we make mistakes? Of course, we're going to make mistakes. We're people. But for the love of God, it's going to be better and truer. Uh, then what we've got, because what we've got is a poop show. We've got a bunch of people who can't read.
And a school to prison pipeline. So that's the solution framework.
Amanda: I think that we could keep talking about the solution framework. We're going to keep, keep going [01:01:00] back to it in all our episodes. Um, and we have a petition on our website that you can sign if you want to be a part of it.
Trina: Yeah, the petition goes to the K 12 subcommittee in Congress.
And I don't know exactly what that looks like or how that gets done, but it needs to start with them somehow, some way it starts with them. They made this mess. They got to clean it up and they got to put us in charge of our own world.
Amanda: Yes, teachers in charge.
Trina: Any final thoughts toward teachers? who are burnt out, stressed out, exhausted.
Amanda: You got to find your people. We did.
Trina: You got to find your people and they may not be at your site. They're probably not at your site. Look long and far and create a little army of people that get you. But also Um, practice radical love for everyone else around you and be kind to your coworkers [01:02:00] because they're all in this mess with you.
That's it for today. Thanks for listening, everyone. Please let us know if you want to join in this or any conversation on the podcast because we have only begun to delve into each topic and we need your voice to do this justice. Don't forget to go to TeachersShortageCrisis. com to sign the petition and join the movement to save K 12 schooling and our democracy.
And remember, we may just be teachers, but we're the only ones who can fix this mess.
