17. The Reading Mess Part IV: Veteran 2nd Grade Teacher & Instructional Coach Janet Nasir Shares Her Story

In this podcast episode, the host welcomes Janet Nasir, a veteran second-grade reading teacher and instructional coach in Southern California. Jess and Trina engage in a discussion with Janet, who shares her extensive experiences and challenges with reading instruction in the U.S. Janet details her journey from teaching middle school to second grade, highlighting the systemic issues she encountered that lead to inadequate foundational reading skills instruction. They explore the broader implications of illiteracy on society and the need for comprehensive, explicit phonics instruction. Trina introduces a solution framework involving seasoned reading teachers mentoring new teachers to improve literacy rates. The episode culminates in a discussion on the importance of reading in a democratic society and the potential for systemic change.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:27 Janet's Teaching Journey
03:06 Challenges in Reading Instruction
03:47 Middle School Reading Struggles
06:31 Teacher Training Gaps
09:42 Blame and Systemic Issues
14:05 RICA and Teacher Assessments
17:47 Learning to Teach Reading
21:55 Pandemic and Self-Education
24:50 Impact of Effective Phonics Instruction
32:41 Challenging Outdated Teaching Practices
33:46 Personal Experiences with Reading Instruction
34:48 The Problem with Current Reading Programs
37:46 Introducing a New Solution
51:12 The Importance of Literacy Rates
01:02:47 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

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Transcript

Trina: [00:00:00] Today, we are fortunate to have a fantastic guest come on our show, who is a long time friend of Jess's, who has experienced firsthand all of the problems we've been talking about with reading instruction in the United States, because she is a veteran second grade reading teacher, and she's now even coach in Southern California.

You're going to hear all about The mistakes we've made and how they've impacted our Children from a fantastic teacher today who grooves everything we've been talking about, um, as someone on the ground floor who's embattled. and frustrated with the status quo of reading instruction in America.

Jess: All right, welcome, welcome, [00:01:00] welcome friendzies. I'm happy to have you back to our podcast. And today we have another reading mess episode for you. And I have my buddy Janet here, who's a teacher in Southern California, and she has so many interesting things to say about the reading mess, which I just talked about last week with my other buddy, Trina, who's also here in the interview.

I think you're going to love it. We're going to have a great time. So Janet. What would you like us to know about you before we, we dive into the questions? 

Janet: All right. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited about this. Um, this is, I think it's my 18th year in education. I had to take a year off, so I get kind of confused at where I'm at.

I'm currently an elementary common core instructional coach. Um, but I started my career as an eighth grade ELA science teacher, which I think is a really weird combination. Um, and kind of like fell into that position. I never wanted to teach middle school, but I landed there. And then my second year I moved to seventh grade [00:02:00] social studies ELA.

Did that for many years. Became a district, my district at the time called it TOSA, teacher on special assignment. Hated it. I sat in front of a computer all day. And wasn't working with kids or teachers had my second kid, and there was a job opening at a district much closer to home for second grade. And that's always been my dream grade.

So I just took it. Um, and I did that for many years, like 4 or 5 years. And then the year that we were online for the pandemic 2020 2021. I moved to fourth grade was there for several years. And now, like I said, I'm instructional coach. So I've kind of been all over the place. And I taught a 2 3 combo in there one year as well.

Jess: That sounds pretty wild to me. I love it. Um, I also love second grade and when I went to go student teach, that was what I wanted, but they gave me fifth grade and then I sort of got pigeonholed with fifth and sixth and seventh and eighth from then on out, but I always wanted to teach second and I've always heard it's kind of the [00:03:00] sweet spot.

But of course the one thing about second grade is, well, you need to teach a lot of people how to read. Yeah. Yes. So anyway, in your, in your forum that you like, I sent out kind of a little survey to people that want to be on the podcast. Um, you had mentioned that there is this, um, lack of foundational reading skills instruction.

In your state, I think it's the whole country. And I just wanted to, I wanted to hear a little bit more of your perspective on this. What's your two cents on the issue going from middle school to second grade? Or like, what did you, like, did you know there was such a big problem in middle school? I think all of us middle school teachers know that, oh wow, there's a lot of kids in my class that don't know how to read.

All right. But like, what, what's your perspective on that? 

Janet: Well, I have way more than two cents. I probably have like 10 worth of Thoughts on this. Um, so my middle school experience was at a very low income school. It was in a suburb, but it was like the border of two [00:04:00] gangs, high migrant population, high foster student population.

That's just some background on where it was at. Um, and I was like, you know, fresh new teacher, I'm going to go in and change the world. And then my first period class was reading intervention. And these were students who could barely read CBC words. Okay. And I had no guidance. I had no curriculum. I had no idea what I was even doing.

And that year, I was also like a mid year replacement. It was a first year teacher that had that class. He quit before Christmas break and I started the day after Christmas break ended. Um, and was literally just thrown into everything. So we had a book room and I found some books that were like a third grade level and was like, we're going to read these books together.

And we did, which meant that I did a lot of reading and they did a lot of whatever they were doing. Um, and my principal at the time was not happy with me because she said, this is a third grade level book. [00:05:00] You're sick. Well, what are you doing? Because I don't know what to do. These kids can't read, you know, obviously I wasn't tenured.

So I didn't say to her face, what are you doing? But that was my internal thought. Um, and I kept teaching this book because I figured you're not giving me any support. I'm just going to figure it out. And it just kept continuing like that. When I moved to seventh grade, same thing. I taught reading intervention as my elective.

Um, I did, since I did teach ELA and social studies together to the same group of kids, I basically tried to teach social studies like a non fiction ELA class. I was talking to my husband about this earlier, like, We were learning about whatever era Genghis Khan was in. I forget. I've been out of that world for a while.

So I bought a class set of books. It was like, who was Genghis Khan? And we read that in ELA so that we would get more. So I knew I needed to build background knowledge, right? But I did not know how to teach them to decode. So it was a lot of heavy lifting on my end because I was reading all of these texts out loud.

And [00:06:00] also, I'm a voracious reader. I love to read. Um, I've always loved to read. So I was like, why do you not know how to read? Like, I don't understand. And I also didn't remember learning how to read. I knew that I struggled until the middle of first grade. Because again, being born in 81, that's the whole language era as well.

Um, and I remember teachers with sight words. And so something happened in my brain between December and January first grade, it just clicked and I came back to school reading at a second grade level, but nobody can explain why. Right. So as a teacher with kids that were in that same situation, but much older, no idea how to help them.

And I even got an award at my school as like the reading comprehension queen. And I was like, that's all well and good, except these kids still can't read. They can comprehend through listening, but they still can't read. Um, I forgot where I was going with all of that. Did you ask me just about middle school or 

Jess: elementary as well?

Well, I was just [00:07:00] wondering, like, what was your perspective on it? Because I know last week, uh, Me and Trina were talking about the reading mess and how, you know, when we went to get our, our master's degrees, like they didn't necessarily teach us how to teach people how to read. And I think that the general public thinks that if you go to like a college for teachers, you're going to learn how to teach people how to read.

And it's not, it really depends on. You know, the, the program you're in and grade levels that you want to teach, but like, it's not center to what you're learning as like, you're learning a lot more about at least my program. I was learning a lot more about, you know, crafting lesson plans and executing them.

And Oh, what's an anticipatory set and all of this jargon. Like they told me you need to learn the vocabulary if you're going to get a job, right. And so like, and I didn't necessarily. Um, I like I fell in love with a lot of books and I learned a lot about children's [00:08:00] books, but that doesn't really mean that I learned how to teach people how to read.

So what was your experience with that? Like, were you thinking that in the back of your head when you're like, Oh, boy, these people don't know how to read? 

Janet: Like, what do I know? Yeah, well, especially so I didn't get my undergrad degree in education. My undergrad degree is in print journalism. Um, cause I wanted to be a journalist and then I found out that I was only going to make 20, 000 a year with no benefits and thought, you know what?

I've always liked teaching. Let's try that. So, uh, I'm going to name and shame my university. I went to Cal Poly Pomona. And got my credential there. And I don't think I had a single class that was on foundational skills. It was a lot of what you said, Jessica, like picture books and the joy of reading and then comprehension.

We learned about step up to writing, which I have not worked at a single school that you step up to writing. Um, and so that was kind of funny to me that they pushed this one writing curriculum and I've never literally used it as a, like an actual teacher. [00:09:00] Um, it was just kind of a mess, right? It was just like.

Kids will read and this is what they'll do when they read but it wasn't any of Here's how and I always say I will shame myself as well as a middle school teacher I blamed the elementary school. Why are they teaching these kids how to read? This is their fault Right, because it was all I knew, and I felt like, well, they must have been doing something wrong, but I'm credentialed K 8.

So are they, because California, we were multiple subject through K 8, right? That's how I was able to teach middle school. Um, so if I didn't know how to teach them how to read, why was I expecting the elementary school teachers to know how to teach them to know how to read? Because they went through a similar program that I did.

You know, we're not preparing our teachers with the skills that they need to help their students. 

Jess: I totally agree. And I used to do the same thing. I've spent most of my years in education, teaching fifth grade, probably like that's where I, [00:10:00] I think I've taught five years of fifth grade and I always would blame.

And I taught two years of fourth grade and being an upper elementary teacher, you just kind of expect the kids are going to come with these foundational reading skills. And then you start blaming. Well, What the third grade teacher do? And what are the second grade teachers like here? And what did the first grade, like you start blaming the individual teachers.

Well, I heard that this person is just a horrible teacher. So no wonder a third of my students don't know how to read. And you get like, instead of seeing it as like a systemic problem, you get to being like, like you're blaming individuals. So bonkers. It's bonkers to do that. As a teacher, you wouldn't want to be blamed for someone else's, um, uh, mess, right?

Like, 

Janet: I know in front of my class, sorry, from my classroom, Dorothy middle school, I could see the elementary school. So I would like physically look at them and be like, what are you doing? Which is so unfair, right? But we weren't given the tools to like, know what needed to be [00:11:00] done. So it's kind of like you're building the plane as you're flying it, but it's also on fire and you need to put out the fire.

And so it's just like, well, it's your fault, but really it was. It's everybody's fault and the people above us and our university programs, 

Jess: you know. I agree. And I see Trina, you have, do you have something to add to this right now? I see your hand up over there. 

Trina: Thank you, Janet, for everything you're saying.

It just echoes so many of my own observations too. And one of the problems we've encountered is that it becomes impossible to characterize anything on a national level. Because of the local control problem, and trying to explain that to non teachers is really difficult, right? Um, and so, in California, and it's impossible to say exactly how this happens in other states without talking to teachers who have a multiple subject credential in every single state.

But in California, we do have to teach non teachers.[00:12:00] 

I don't know if you've heard this, Janet. They're thinking about getting rid of it because it's eliminating too many candidates to which I know, and I hate all the assessments that we're forced to take in California, but the solution is not to get rid of the requirement. The solution is to actually teach us how to teach reading.

And 

Trina: so, right. So I did not learn how to teach reading at all until I studied for the RICA and I found a professor who posted YouTube videos. He was a CSU professor. I think CSU Stanislaus, I think, um, who posted a bunch of videos that took you all the way through the foundations of reading sequence. And I was like, wow.

And I had already been teaching for years by the time Rika came up because I was hired in a high needs district without a credential. So I just felt so much shame and embarrassment for not knowing this information before. But I still like you, I was charged with teaching, reading intervention, and I was a brand new uncredentialed teacher and they just stuck all of the kids [00:13:00] in a room and put them on nuzella, which didn't accomplish, you know, anything to help them.

But I also wanted to say like your experience with blaming and shaming elementary teachers. We all do that. We're all throwing each other under the bus. We're all being told we're totally responsible for everything that happens in our classroom, but we're all a part of this oppression. And so part of the aim of this podcast, this is just to tell every single teacher that you are perfect and beautiful and loved.

But also in regards to the reading instruction mass is really elevating the voices of the expert first and second grade teachers because they are never given the chance to guide and lead what the nation is doing with reading instruction. And the only way you learn this is by being on the ground floor and teaching readings.

It is the hardest thing we do in all of K 12 education and it is the most overlooked and the people who get to make the decisions about how reading instruction happens never taught reading. 

Yeah, 

Trina: I'm gonna let you comment on that. And I love you, [00:14:00] Janet. I'm so glad you're here. 

Janet: I have so many things to say.

About all of those things. So Rika, specifically, I agree with you. We should not be getting rid of the Rika. We should make the Rika match what we know about the science of reading. Because when I took the Rika, going through my credential program, one of my professors said, just include word walls in as many answers as you can, and you will pass.

And I did, and I did. Like every short answer question, I worked in word walls. I passed that test on the first try. I

Trina: know word walls, but I memorized every single step and process and regurgitated it on the reader. So many people fail to recogest. Word walls? Oh my God, this, this is telling me that people who grade these things don't know the science of reading. Okay, I'm going to stop. Ah, Janet! I had a student 

Janet: teacher, I think two years ago.

Um, I was teaching fourth and it was her only round of [00:15:00] student teaching. Her university, they only had to do one, which I thought was weird because I had to do two. But she was telling me that she had to take the RICA. And I was like, well, as long as they haven't changed it from 2007, when I took it, um, word walls is your key to success.

You put word walls in every answer. You're gonna pass. And now I didn't follow up with her after to find out if she did or didn't. But um, yeah, that was literally what I was told by my like, early literacy professor. Word walls are the key to passing the test. She never said word walls are the key to like, literacy instruction, but that was the key to the test.

So that was how I passed it, because I didn't even study for that test. I just like, I know how to read. Word walls are the answer. I'm going to do this. But I am worried about them, like the Department of Education or whoever, eliminating things like the RECA or making the, um, I always confuse it. Is it the CSET?

Or the, the kids took the CST, [00:16:00] we took the CSET. We took the 

Trina: CSET, but the CSET does not test us on our ability to teach reading. It only taught us, it only tested us on our like content area knowledge on English. English language arts. It's not a pedagogical, it's not a pedagogical test. But maybe this is 

Janet: me being a jerk, because I feel like if you can't pass the CSET, like, maybe you shouldn't be a teacher.

And I see people that are like, I had to take it 10 times, and I feel really bad for them. But I also feel like, I don't think lowering the bar is the answer. That's, that's basically what I want to say. The lowering the bar is not the answer. Um, and in a lot of countries, it's like an, I don't know if an honor is the right way to say it, but it's very difficult to get into a credential program or whatever they call it in other countries, right?

It's not like a, a fallback. It's a, I want to do this and the requirements are really high because educating our children is super important. It's not considered babysitting for eight hours a day. [00:17:00] It's like this is our future. Um, and so I think lowering the bar and eliminating the RICA is not the answer, but I also think testing anybody, kids or adults to death, is also not the answer.

So there's got to be some other answer in there, uh, that we could probably get into, but yeah, like the RICA, word balls, I mean, so unless they're going to change the test, it's really not a valuable test. Because if you put the right keywords in your short answers, you will pass. And that's kind of silly, right?

Like that doesn't, I didn't know how to teach kids to read, but I passed the reading test. It said I did. Um, yeah, that was a mess. I feel like I wanted to address it. I can't remember. I'm sorry. Chemo killed my brain. So I lose track of thoughts sometimes. I totally get it. I 

Jess: totally do. Um, I think so. Okay.

Here was my burning question for you when I was reading through the form and everything you were talking about. My burning [00:18:00] question is that you went from seventh and eighth grade down to second grade. And so I was just wondering, since we've already established the fact that you didn't really learn how to teach foundational reading skills in your program to become a teacher, how did you learn?

To deal with second graders, like, how did you learn to teach second graders? And I've always thought about that for myself because I have heard that second grade is sort of this, um, kind of a, it's kind of a golden year. It's kind of a fun year to be in someone's life. And now I teach kindergarten through fifth grade and I can see it, you know, it's, it's really fun year.

I really love second graders most of the time. Um, so I was just wondering, like, how did you, How did you learn making that thing? Like, did you learn a certain skill set? Did they have a certain curriculum? Did you have a mentor? Did you have to start Googling YouTube videos like Trina did? I mean, what did you learn?

Like, how did you learn to teach the second graders going from like, and I know you already probably had a [00:19:00] little bit in your back pocket because you were teaching these middle schoolers how to read through novels and whatnot, but like, did you do anything special? To to teach them. I'm just wondering that was my burning like question.

Janet: I should probably start this off by apologizing to all the second graders that I taught for not being an effective literacy instructor for them. We, so it's weird because I told you I started middle school as a mid year replacement. I also started second grade as a mid year replacement. I had my second kid in October and in February I changed districts.

And took this somebody had quit over Christmas break. Same thing. Um, so that first year, semester, whatever you want to call it in second grade was just survival, right? Because these kids had had a string of subs before I came along. The next year I was like, okay, I'm going to do right by these kids. And we had adopted Wonders.

It was the first year Wonders came out. And Wonders has way [00:20:00] too many things in it, first of all. Um, but I felt like the phonics was not systematic and explicit, which we know now is like what foundational skills need to be. Right? I didn't even know what phonemic awareness was. So I can't even speak to that in second grade, but I knew that I needed to teach them the code.

I just didn't know how or when, and I didn't know what to do with the kids who could already read. So it was kind of like drive by phonics instruction. Like, all right, today we're learning about long E and this is how, you know, like the E at the end of a word works. It makes the vowel in the middle say its name, but we didn't have any decodable text.

So there's no independent practice of that. I was learning it as I was teaching it. So I wasn't the best instructor for it. You know, the whole first best instruction, they got like the first worst instruction when it came to that. And it was just kind of like sight words, you know, sight words was still a buzzword at the [00:21:00] time.

And so I bought some like, Fry site word lists off TPT, like some little booklets and, um, gave them to kids. It was like, I need you to memorize these and I would pull them in small groups and we would read down the list of words and we will read down the list of words. And then I'd be like, can I, you read it independently?

And I knew that wasn't working, but I didn't know what else to do. And honestly, I didn't figure it out in second grade. It took me moving to fourth. I moved to fourth, the year that we were online. So I finished second, the year that the pandemic started 2020 that spring, I was still in second. Fall 2020, I moved to fourth grade and I'm so glad I did because one, the kids could at least operate the computer independently, um, because my friends that were still in second were like, this is a nightmare.

Um, but also it gave me time Because my district, we were not live all day. Like my kids district, they were live all day. Like it was a regular school day. We were live for like an hour and a half in the morning, half an hour, midday, [00:22:00] half an hour at the end of the day to close. I use that time to learn. And I was like, some of these fourth graders were my second graders and they still can't read.

So I'm part, I'm part of this problem and I can't continue being part of the problem because I'm not, I'm not, I'm not doing what I set out to do. Like I wanted to be a teacher, this is so cliche, but I wanted to be a teacher to make a difference. And I wanted to move to second or any primary grade because I wanted to kind of stymie the problem of kids getting to middle school and not being able to read.

So in all of my like big headedness, I was like, I'm going to go to elementary and I'm going to fix the problem. Well, I continued the problem. So during the pandemic, I started diving into the science of reading. And one of my really good friends from the school that I was teaching at the time, she teaches kinder.

And so she also wanted to do better. So we just started, you know, zoom calls, texting, like, what are you learning? We both bought and read the [00:23:00] six shifts, um, and discuss that. And then I bought, I wrote it down. It's called differentiating literacy instruction. I bought the one that's for primary grades, and then I wound up buying the one that's for fourth and fifth.

I also bought in red, um, when kids can't read what teachers can do by Kylene beers. So I was using those things. to learn. And then I just started applying little pieces. So with my fourth graders online, I met with like my students who are English learners who are also struggling to read. And we started reading a novel together, but we also would dive into some phonics.

So each like chapter, instead of doing vocabulary and comprehension, we would do a little bit of phonics and comprehension and some vocab. And it just kind of grew for there from there. When we came back on campus. I wanted everybody to do what I was doing. Part of my problem in life is that I can be very bossy.

[00:24:00] And so I was telling my admin like, you need to start learning about this and you need to start enforcing it in primary. And that did, that went over like a lead balloon. Um, but so that I kind of backed the train up and I was like, fine, I'll just focus on my sphere of influence. I'm going to focus on my fourth graders.

And so my last year as a classroom teacher, which was two years ago, I had fourth grade. I also had the RSP students who are mainstreamed into gen ed classes. These students, gen ed fourth grade and my RSP students couldn't read CBC words. They didn't know their short vowel sounds. This is about the time that University of Florida Literacy Institute came out with their foundational skills curriculum.

Um, some people call it UFLI. I just call it U F L I. But I bought it and so did my kinder teacher friend. We both bought it. She used it in kinder. I used it as fourth grade intervention. We saw so much growth. My fourth grade students left me at the end of the year able to read and to [00:25:00] write multi syllabic words when they were struggling to read cat in August, you know, I am not saying they were on grade level and I'm not saying it's because of me.

But because they had systematic explicit phonics instruction every single day, they made so much growth. And I took, so at that school we did intervention where we divided the kids up to like high, which was like above grade level, grade level. And then like struggling readers. We also had a reading interventionist and she took a lot of kids.

I was fortunate that I only took six kids for reading intervention with me. And like 20 went to the actual interventionist. She had to use read 180 that was mandated by our district. The teachers ourselves, we were not mandated for any intervention curriculum. So I used the UFLA curriculum. Um, I was able to move three of my kids up to the next like level of intervention into the on grade level because they picked up the code so [00:26:00] quickly.

And then what I saw through that too was like their confidence just exploded. They could identify as readers at this point, where before they were like, school sucks because I don't know what we're doing. I can't read anything independently. And now I had kids who traditionally scored very low on everything, got bad grades, maybe bad behavior.

They were like, so engaged in learning. And it really was just because I taught them to short vowel sounds, taught them the long vowel patterns. And then I bought with my own money, decodable text, I bought decodable chapter books, um, and I just had them practicing as much as I possibly could. But the problem is, that was all directed by me, right?

I'm one person with a class of 30 something students. So the other 2, 3, 4th grade classes, like, they're not getting that, and how is that equitable? It's not. And it should never be, teachers have to pay out of their own pocket to [00:27:00] support their kids. Never. And even though I'm a teacher, a Teachers Pay Teachers seller, I give away so much of my stuff for free to people I know, to people that I meet on Instagram, because I don't want to support this idea that we should be paying to do our jobs.

Right. And so me going out and buying the UFLA curriculum like that, that kind of was a stop gap in my school. But if we could do something like that, starting in kinder TK or preschool, because we have preschool at our schools in my district. Um, imagine how much more our kids could do. 

Jess: I love it. I love it.

Trina, I see that you had something that you wanted to add in after listening to Janet and I was just, I am floored by your story because, you know, I, I taught fourth grade during pandemic too. And, um, I wasn't really thinking about educating myself. I was like, woo, time for a hot cocoa and to go hang out with my dog.

[00:28:00] I'm really like enamored with this story, Janet, that you're just like, I'm going to learn how to teach people to read. 

Janet: I'm just, I, I really love learning. I have an extensive, um, PD library that I bought myself. Most of it lives here at my house. Some of it's at my school. But I mean, and I've done this in all areas, like I know this is off topic, but building thinking costumes in mathematics, I bought that book.

I tried it. It's now district wide in my district. Um, because I was interested in how do we make math education better? You know, and my friends always tease me. They're like, we don't know anybody else that buys and reads these books for pleasure, like you do. And I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it's a journalism background that I have, um, where I'm always like seeking to learn new things, but I also, I want to be the best and that sounds very egotistical, but I really do.

I want to be the best teacher that I can possibly be because it's not like working in an office where like there's [00:29:00] some product that like we can have different variations, right? Like the iPhone, it's continually new models that improve on the others. The kids are our product, and I can't take the child from 2020 and have them again in 2021 and make them better.

Like, I only get that one shot with them. And um, I hope it doesn't come across as like, you know, like the savior complex, because I definitely don't view it that way. It's more just, this is my job, is to teach these kids. I need to be the best I can possibly be because who knows what's going to happen later in their life and who knows what happened before.

Jess: I love that so much, Janet. Like I said, I am just, I am in love with this philosophy and everything that you've done. This is so amazing. Trina, do you still have something you wanted to add? You had your hand up, you put it down. You got something, you got, you got any, any thoughts running through? I can see a lot going on over there.

Trina: I just, I'm so in love with your story, Janet, and I so identify with it. [00:30:00] I know just as too, and I think. In order to get to the roots of some of these problems requires a deeply like investigative process, which is where your journalism background comes in is like you see problems. There's a solution.

What in the heck is it right? And I identify one with trying to tell my leaders. Do you know what it means when we have kids that are testing below the third grade level in middle school? They are functionally illiterate and being told that that was a dirty term and I'm not supposed to label kids with it.

And then there was no reading intervention being offered at my middle school for, for kids who were illiterate and just a lack of a bravery of even facing up to our problems. And this was in a high needs middle school. Um, but also like, I just want to back up just a sec. Cause you said when your kids could not read CVC words, and I know what that means.

And it represents a truly fundamental problem. Could you break that down for the teachers who don't teach reading? 

Janet: Yeah, of course. So CVC means consonant vowel consonant, so those three letter quote [00:31:00] unquote easy words, sit, cat, hat, you know, that if you can decode those, that's kind of like that first stepping stone from moving from phonemic awareness into phonics and decoding text.

Um, and then those little CBC words, they become the basis later of our multisyllabic words. So if a kid is in the upper grades and they can't read cat, and if they don't understand that, understand that short a says ah and not aw, it becomes so much harder to be able to read complex texts. And as we know, once we get to third, fourth, fifth grade, the complexity of the text, it Become so much more than it is in the primary grades.

They have complex texts that's at, you know, should be at their students' levels. But when you move into third, fourth, fifth grade, the pictures go away. And now strategies that maybe you were [00:32:00] taught, like to look at the word and guess or not look at the word. I'm sorry. Look at the picture. And guess that strategy has expired because you don't have a picture anymore.

Right? And that's why I hate, hate, hate, hate balanced literacy because it teaches kids all these stupid strategies that work in the moment, maybe, um, and it hides massive problems. And then they go on to the upper grades, to middle school and life beyond. And they do not know how to read. And all of those strategies have expired, you know, like skipping over the word and coming back to it.

That's not going to work when you're reading a college textbook about human anatomy. You know, how do we have people become doctors and lawyers and all sorts of things? Police, if their strategies are going to be look at the picture, skip over the word. Like that's, that's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.

But people hold on to that. People hold on to it. And I [00:33:00] don't, we talked about earlier about like all teachers are amazing and they are because this is a hard job, no matter where you live. Like I'm very fortunate to live in an area with a very high paid district. So I am not struggling financially at all, but I know that's not the case everywhere.

Right. But everybody has a duty to the students in front of them. And if you are holding onto bad practice, like look at the picture and memorize this list of sight words. and rainbow write your words for homework, then you are failing your kids and you are choosing to fail your kids at that point. And I don't care if that hurts people's feelings because we need hard honest truths right now.

We cannot just keep putting our heads in the sand and saying, well, somebody else will fix it. No, we have the power to fix it now. And we need to. You know, and my own kids, they go to a quote unquote high performing school district. Um, we live in like a more affluent area, and they hold on to these really bad practices.

So last year, my younger son was in second grade, [00:34:00] and I met with his teacher. Both of my kids are very high readers. You know, I did the work when they were little to make sure that they would be. Um, and his teacher was telling me about his reading group and she asked me, she knows I'm a teacher, she asked me if I'm familiar with Fountas and Pinnell.

And I just looked at her and I said, I'm a science or reading person. And she literally took the book and she went, Oh, and like pulled it away and put it in the shelf and didn't say anything else about reading groups. So you know, you know that what you're doing is not the right thing because in the face of somebody telling you that, oh, there are signs of reading person, you just ended the conversation, right?

And I love his teacher. She's our neighbor. I see her still. I love her. And I don't think it's a her problem. I think it is a district problem. And I think it is above the district, right? And instead of investing in good, high quality, curriculum, training, coaching, and support, we're investing in Band Aids.[00:35:00] 

That's what 

Jess: it is, right? I totally agree. Um, Trina, I see you got your hand up again. Did you have something to add? I think Trina lives in an affluent district as well, right? You teach in one. And so I, I'm sure you're hearing a lot of the thoughts that you've already had. I mean, like you've talked about some of these things.

Trina: Well, I mean, Janet, I feel so much solidarity with you. Um, except for that. I never did teach a first or second grade class. I've only ever taught six or seven. 

But I 

Trina: was like driven to research and learn as much as I could, just like you. First, I want to talk about Pennell. 

So 

Trina: I don't know if you heard on the news, but San Francisco Unified just had to admit that they have to stop using FNP.

FNP is still being used to do, um, remediation of skills in special education, resource 

classrooms, and is not working. I feel so badly for our special education teachers who were told here, Use this pile of, [00:36:00] you know, what? To help to help your kids and they're and they're not being 

Trina: given an equitable opportunity to learn those skills.

But I will push back about one thing and I'm not really pushing back because I love your rebel spirit. I love your rebel spirit. It, I have been so frustrated with teachers not noticing that this whole language approach was not working. I, I have been too. I also think that this, this profession rewards complacency, complicity, And staying in the box and as women, as a woman dominated profession, we are definitely conditioned to not complain, not stand out and not argue.

And as, as evil as it is to say that like we would sequester, we would suppress our own valid observations here. that something isn't working. I think that's what's happening. And I, I have become more compassionate as I've gotten older, uh, as I've not gotten older, although I am older than you guys. I was born in 74.

Um, [00:37:00] I, I just, I, I just want to open my heart more to first and second grade teachers who have been forced to comply with this because being a rebel is so. Hard Janet, you get so much micro macro aggression and retaliation and you are that person who has no social capital on your campus because you're calling out all the oppression and so it is so hard when the system is shoving down your throat an approach you know is not working and you just get exhausted just like what you said is you just turn and deal with just your kids in your room.

You've got Put a wall up around you and just help those kids in front of you. But like what you've noticed is eventually if you're smart and you notice what's going on, that's not enough. That's not enough. I 

Jess: think this would be a perfect time right now, Janet. We really, really, really want to tell you our solution.

Well, I, we, we wanted to kind of spring it on you a little bit, . I kind of just kind of, I [00:38:00] didn't wanna tell you about it before the show and have you think about it. I just wanna get your initial gut reaction, and this is really Trina's idea, but she told me about it last weekend and I was like, gosh, I think I, I mean, I had something similar happen to me once, and it was a really positive experience and I just couldn't believe that I had this thing happen that Trina was already brainchild in her head.

Like it happened to me in a very. small district. But this is this. I want Trina to tell her solution to the reading mess. And I just felt like you would have a lot to say about. So I'm going to hand the mic over to Trina now and tell us the solution. 

Trina: Well, um, so really this gets to the heart of the teacher shortage problem.

Because what we know is that in order to be a good reading teacher in first or second grade, you need years under your belt. Because even if you know Rika information, even if you've been taught it, which we already know and say, we're not being taught it. We're not being taught it. [00:39:00] But even if you are being taught the science of reading, it takes years of practice to get good at it to really, it's just something you have to learn on the job.

So the problem then becomes, how do we mitigate the fact that a lot of our highest needs kids. Are getting brand new teachers in first or second grade or like you mentioned a parade of subs That's I inherited a lot of kids who didn't even have a teacher of record In their first or second grade years, which is an insult to the, um, reading opportunity experiences that a child cannot recover from.

They just, they cannot. So how do you mitigate this harm? We don't have a profession that is desirable that people want. We're not, we're not attracting rebels, right? And we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not rewarding rebel spirit. And moreover, in order to lead our profession, you have to leave it. We have no space where teachers get to truly lead the profession like the American Medical Association, something akin to that, where we're high recognized as experts.

So how do you [00:40:00] mitigate all of this? Right? Well, my idea was if you have a brand new first or second grade teacher, whether they're credentialed or not brand new, they're not allowed to touch tier one reading instruction and, and probably not even tier two reading instruction. What should happen is a highly paid, something like a TOSA, but highly paid.

Because I think it's nonsense that toasters don't make more money, but they're highly paid. They push in and provide tier one instruction, thereby mentoring the brand new teacher and showing them what good pedagogy looks like until such time as they both agree, they're ready to be released and, um, handle it on their own.

Right? And so this person, this expert, I call badass sage, Mostly women are pushing into maybe three or four classrooms on their caseload making a lot more money Right. Their leadership, because I'm also advocating for a new professional designation at K 12. The teachers are given a leadership designation and they remain teachers with tenure, [00:41:00] right?

They still have that protection. So they're able to fight against the political juggernaut of K 12 nonsense. So they, it's not a great gig because you don't have your own classroom, but you're highly paid. It's deeply rewarding. And you're arming The next generation of first and second grade teachers with your sage knowledge.

And you're making sure that no child is suffering through a year of a brand new teacher. So we require money, but that's my plan. What do you think? 

Janet: I actually really like that. I thought you were going in a different direction at first. Um, cause I was, I thought you were going to say like a co teacher model all day, all year, um, which I also think could be beneficial because it's not just reading.

That's the problem, right? Like. Math instruction needs a lot of help. Writing instruction needs a lot of help. So a co teaching model would be great. But your specific idea of having like an instructional coach who takes on three, four brand new teachers, first, second, third year teachers, and teaches the reading [00:42:00] instruction, almost like the classroom teacher is a student teacher in a way.

Or like an intern. I think that's a really great solution to the idea. Like you said, it takes money. Now, in my district, um, TOAs or instructional coaches, we are paid more, but we also work a longer school day and a longer calendar, so I work an 8 hour day now instead of a 7 hour day, and I work 10 more days than teachers, so I got a raise with that, but it really just covers my extra time, but I think having, uh, some kind of coach Who's paid a lot more because that coach also needs to engage in ongoing education, right?

Like they need to engage and not always led by themselves. Like, you can't always wait for the people that are like us that will go out and buy their own PD. You can have really great coaches that need district given PD or need to be like, yes, I will send you to this [00:43:00] conference and I will cover the cost so that you can learn more and bring it back.

If we had that type of model and those coaches were well trained in the science of reading, and I'm not just talking about the word recognition piece. I'm talking about all of Scarborough's rope. Um, I think we could see massive, massive change. In our country in literacy, but it comes back to funding. 

Trina: It does, but it all.

Okay. So also these sages, these, these wizened reading teachers, they hold extremely esoteric knowledge that our leaders don't hold. Right. So these people would be charged with making all of the decisions around the LA, the district level, um, decisions around how reading instruction should happen, what it should look like, what curriculums we're using.

No. Body. Who has never taught reading gets to make those choices. And that's how we got into this mess. The people who, even people at the high up, like Lucy Pinnell, they may have [00:44:00] taught reading in the past, but if you're not still teaching reading, and if you didn't teach it for a long time, you have no business making these decisions.

Janet: I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. And what you said too, but like, not just having taught reading, but having taught reading in an effective way, because people who are balanced literacy, like Lucy Calkins is our queen, right? Now, I'd like to see her head on a stake because I feel like she has like destroyed reading in this country.

Maybe not her head on a stake. I don't advocate the killing of anybody. Um, No, I get it. And I love your passion. I mean, I said the same thing to my teachers that I coach when I had to bring them something that they didn't like. I was like, please don't put my head on a stake. It's just, you know, my phrase, but, um, yeah, people who are well versed in the science of reading and the science of reading isn't new.

That's the thing that really like it goes back decades. Right. I know. And like you're born in the seventies, Jess and I are born in the eighties. That was whole language era, but this [00:45:00] research already existed. It just got better in the past 40 years with MRIs and things like that. And so people that have, that are well versed in the science of reading that have taught using the knowledge that we have from the science of reading.

Yes, they should be the sages or the mentors for new teachers and also for teachers who have been teaching for a long time in the balanced literacy. Because it's not just new teachers, right? And my hope, and my addition to your, um, solution is that University professors also have to have a lot of knowledge in this area.

They have to have studied the science of reading. And then they have to be teaching it to their teacher candidates. And taking those teacher candidates out into schools where it's being taught through that method. Seeing it in action. Instead of what we talked about earlier, just like, If you throw word walls into your answer, you're going to pass the [00:46:00] test and you have to make love books.

I have to love books, right? Like, I probably have 10, 000 worth of books that I just bought for school, right? And most of them are in my house right now because I changed positions. But, um, I'm a big proponent of like a print rich environment, but that is not the only thing. Kids are not going to learn to read through osmosis.

They're not read because I have an amazing picture book that's culturally relevant. That is a key piece. My students need to see themselves in the books that are in my classroom, but they also need to be able to read those books and without them, they're not going to be able to read the books. And I want to add to that soapbox, I just keep piling them up, is that picture books do not mean easy books, picture books, just you know, this your library and picture books can be fourth, fifth, sixth grade level.

They can be a high school level. 

Trina: I know, but check this out. I was once given picture books [00:47:00] targeted at secondary non readers as a substitute for direct instruction in phonics. So I still have them, and I love picture books. I teach ELA and history too. But, they are not a substitute. It is a great tool.

When we say balanced, balanced literacy has corrupted this idea of it should be a grab bag of a lot of different things and only a wise and expert reading teacher knows how to mix and match all of the different strategies and create a really well rounded plan that is sort of tailored for each individual kid because a lot of people learn reading, you know, very differently.

It's a very foreign thing to our brains, right? Yes. 

Janet: Our brains are definitely not designed to automatically pick up reading the way we are designed to pick up reading. Like verbal language. That's right. And yesterday, so my district adopted magnetic reading, which is like the iReady version of a foundational skills program.

We just adopted it this year. Um, so as a coach, I'm going [00:48:00] into primary classes to teach lessons just so I can learn the program so that I can better support them. So I did two second grade and two kinder lessons this week. And like, one of the complaints that people have is like, Oh, this is like, um, open court where it's very scripted and it's very dry.

Right. But I will say having taught four lessons this week on it, It is scripted, but I think in this instance of foundational skills, scripted works, because I'm not trying to make up stuff, I'm not trying to cutify stuff, I am teaching you the code for this 20 30 minutes, right? So I literally printed off the TE, and I highlighted all the things that said, say this, do this, and I wrote the slide number, because it comes with the slideshow, to keep me on track.

But I also was able to infuse myself into it. So I was teaching kinder yesterday. Go ahead, Trina. 

Trina: But what, how much of that do you think is necessary? Because in your mind, you're constantly thinking, what does someone who doesn't know how to do this need? [00:49:00] Right? Like the script is, you don't need this script, Janet, but you're thinking that someone else who doesn't, like, you're trying to come up with a, for lack of a better term, dummy proof plan, because you know, too many people don't know what, you know, right?

Sorry, I'll just let you respond to that. And then I want to dovetail into this big question. If, if you're aware of what our true national literacy rates are. So keep that in the back of your mind. 

Janet: Okay. Your question, sorry, say it again. What is I'm trying to dummy proof the, well, 

Trina: cause you were saying the script has merit.

Yes, and as a rule, I don't love scripted curriculums, but I understand that it that in this instance it was working and I wondering if you thought it had merit because of the fact that so many people who are charged with teaching reading don't know what you know. Like, would you need, do you, Janet, need that script?

I would say yes, 

Janet: because I think it's really easy with phonics and with, um, phonemic [00:50:00] awareness to start veering off in different paths, and I think with this one specific thing, I don't want a scripted curriculum for social studies, I don't want a scripted curriculum for reading instruction, I'm sorry, reading comprehension, but with phonics, I think it does need to be that sharp.

Because I have such a huge problem with illiteracy. Right. And maybe, you know, 10 years in the future, more teachers are experts in how to teach those foundational skills, and we don't need the script. But I think right now we do. I really do think that we do. 

Trina: I got it. I got it. And, um, also I just heard a report on NPR that in Louisiana, They are using a I to offer reading explicit instruction and phonics to substitute for the lack of teachers with this knowledge.

That makes me very scared. Because right now it's being used as a supplement for a teacher, but I could see very easily that it gets turned around and the teacher becomes secondary in the room, just kind of [00:51:00] holding that space while AI delivers that instruction. That makes me very worried, very concerned.

And that's a whole other thematic content we have coming up in the podcast. But so here's my question to you. Both Jess and I became obsessed with what are our true literacy rates. And so one of the things that I found like 2015, I had my kids look at too, um, is something called the CIA world fact book.

Are you familiar with this document? Okay. The CIA, our own intelligence agency puts out a document that quantifies a various quality of life indicators. Uh, for the entire world by nation, life expectancy rate, infant mortality rate, number of women who die in childbirth, number of people living in poverty, people have access to clean water, all of that.

And so in there is the literacy rate. So in back in 2015, it was organized as an X and Y axis table. And so you could quickly just look across the top and see the quality of life indicators look down and you could see. [00:52:00] The list of the countries. And at that time, you could easily see all the countries on one table.

You could run over, run down to United States literacy rate and see an empty box. So our own country wasn't advertising our literacy rates for whatever reason. Then when Trump took office, they reorganized the table altogether. And you could go to it today and see, you have to leaf through pages, and it's really hard to notice what information is or is not being revealed for each country.

But it's still not being revealed for the United States. Now the english speaking world and the rest of the first world have rates above 97 percent and it's And it's it's um being sort of qualified by who's reading at the sixth grade level right in a country Countries that are at the lowest side are in the 60s or down near high 50s 60 And then there's ranges in between now.

There are poor nations Anecdotally that are for whatever reason You Getting up to [00:53:00] high 80s, um, low 90s. So the rest of the English speaking world is 99, a hundred percent. So, but we couldn't find the United States literacy rates. So, Jess, do you want to do the big reveal? 

Jess: Well, you, you eventually did find it, right, Trina?

Yeah. And it was, uh, I talked about this last week because I've been to a bunch of these countries that were. Reporting over, you know, 97 percent 99 percent and they're all English speaking countries. And anyway, ours was around, um, is, is around 65%. That is our, and we're, we're very on par with some developing nations and a bonker.

Janet: I'm sorry to interrupt you. That's actually much higher than I thought you were going to say. I actually thought we were below 50 percent and I don't know. I'm not. Maybe that's pessimistic of me, but you know, just in my experience, um, where [00:54:00] I've taught and where I currently teach, I would have, I would have guessed way lower.

Jess: And Janet, last week, I did the same thing because my district came out with our own stats at the beginning of the school year on our SPS. Back and we only have 20 percent of kids at grade level for reading K 12. So I'm thinking, okay, that that's 20%. And so I'm thinking, well, we're one of the biggest cities in the country, one of the biggest school districts in the country.

We're the fourth biggest school district. So if we're sitting around 20, I was pleasantly surprised. I'm like 65 sounds pretty good. Well, that number, 

Trina: yeah, that number I found at the U S department of education website. Okay. So I have to get the courage, Janet, up to invite. One of the sages who's a just a warrior for reading instruction called dr.

Kareem Weaver Yes, he was part of the NAACP reading project he started fulcrum He also is a part of a documentary series that we're gonna react [00:55:00] to called the right to read Oh my gosh, I was just watching that on YouTube this week Janet. Okay, so what I wanted to do, Jeff, and I forgot to mention this to you guys and to Amanda in our planning meeting, is I wanted us to record a reaction episode to The Right to Read.

And then if we have that. I can humbly submit it to Dr. Weaver and say, please come on and speak. 

Janet: Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. Yes. I watched about the first 20 ish minutes this week. Just, I got other things I needed to do. I have been wanting to watch the documentary for years. And then I saw, I think it was on Facebook that I saw that it's free right now on YouTube with ads, but I will watch all the ads as well.

Uh, because yes, like that's such a powerful piece, right? Like he talks about his own experiences. Um, and with his students and with his children. And I, as I said, I've only watched a little bit of it so far, but I, I love that idea and I bet he would totally be like interested in coming out. 

Trina: I think so. Did you hear what I said [00:56:00] about how I had a conversation with him once.

Janet: No, I did not hear that. Maybe I 

Trina: didn't mention it. So I was in my car, I had been fighting for literacy in Oakland where I was a teacher before and it was just everybody was trying to cover it up and call it struggling reader, you know, they, they just trying to like, sort of dog and pony show of, and no one knew what literacy was.

No one knew what our historical illiteracy rates were. And there were parents who were protesting, like we were graduating high school students who could not read. And it culminated to such a severe problem that parents were protesting in front of the schools, teach our kids to read, stop graduating students who cannot read.

And it was such a bad problem. I couldn't even get at the time, my own union to care about it. Much less people in leadership and then I was driving around and I heard Dr. Karine Weaver and Dirk Tillotson talking about it and they were just blowing a lid off the illiteracy problems in our country [00:57:00] and so I was screaming in my car So I Called up.

Dr. Dirk Tillotson, and he put me in touch with dr. Karine Weaver. I told him the solution framework I just told you and he agreed that it had merit but I got You Sidetracked with other issues and lost touch with him. 'cause then the pandemic lockdowns happened like right after. Mm-Hmm. So I don't know if he remembers me, but , I'm a fan girl.

Janet: I'm sure you tell him he would, or he'd at least say that he would. 

Trina: So would you like to come back on? 

Janet: Yes, I would. That would be amazing. Okay. I'll go watch the whole thing right now if I have to. 

Trina: Well, I would like to record a reaction episode, so you take notes. 

Janet: You're, you're officially invited to the reaction.

All right. I wanted to say one more thing. I'm sorry. And it goes kind of back to what Trina was saying about, um, illiteracy rates. If we are an illiterate society, people cannot function fully in society if they are not literate, right? Like how do you take your learner's permit test before your [00:58:00] driver's test?

Learner's permit test a million years ago, when I took it, it was a written test. Like, well, you had to read it and you had to bubble it, right? You can't take, how do you know who and what you're voting for? If you don't read, and that's a huge one. And I'm not even going to get into the politics of that one, but you can not.

Function fully in society and people who read are people who are curious and people who are curious are people who will go on and they will read more and they will learn more and so they can think critically and converse critically and deeply about a topic versus just listening to the politician that they support or the tiktoker that they follow or the instagrammer that they follow and saying well I like that person I'm going to go with whatever they say.

You know, you, you have to be literate to fully engage in society. And if you're not, like, what kind of life are we setting kids up for as they leave us, and they leave the K 12 system. And adding on to that [00:59:00] one more thing, I apologize, but, um, colleges, I recently read something in the past couple weeks about Colleges are having kids who have never read a whole book and the, the students, the college students are struggling in those one on one level courses because they can't read and they don't read.

And how, how are we graduating kids from the K 12 system? Telling them from preschool, like, you're going to go to college, let's do college fairs. And then we graduate them and they don't have the skills. 

Trina: It's because there are so many bad ideas in education being made by people who don't know what they're talking about.

Like my husband's a high school English teacher. Our last name is English and we teach English. Isn't that funny? Okay. So he's being told get away from fiction. Don't teach novels. It's all expository texts. And so there you have the problem of students that don't know how to sustain their attention to like read a whole novel, but you you hit the nail on the head.

We cannot engage in a democratic [01:00:00] society with people who are illiterate and that is why Horace Mann started this entire. Public schooling option up in the 18 thirties. But the problem was, as I've said before, it was created specifically for women so that we could be paid a third of the salary of equally qualified men.

And from there flows all of the original sins were not trusted to be experts over our profession. No one consults with us. And so here we have this mess. And if people don't like the state of affairs in America today, This illiteracy problem and not trusting teachers and not giving us self possession and treating us as experts is a big reason why a big reason why.

Janet: Sure. We went from the beginning of the pandemic being the heroes of society to now being like, The gum you stepped on on the sidewalk, you know, and it just, that was my PG version of what I wanted to say, but I want to go back to something you said a long time ago. You said about like, we're the rebels in the system.

We're the ones that will push back and advocate for [01:01:00] what's right. We hold a lot of privilege. I don't know about you, Jess, but I'm tenured. Like, I can't be fired for speaking my mind, but when I left one district and went to another, I had to give up my tenure. 

Trina: Me too. 

Janet: The first two years in my new district, I was real quiet.

I just observed all the systematic issues, and then that third year, when I got my tenure back, I was like, here's all the things that were going to change. You know, and so admin went from while you were my loyalist to now you are like the thorn in my side and guaranteed she was happy when I left my school and took this TLA position, um, because she got rid of me because I was seen as the problem.

But the problem was, I was pointing out the problems, you know, but it's a privileged position to be in because I know my job is protected. And there are a lot of teachers in states where they don't have those protections. And so I don't blame those teachers for not speaking up. If your job, you have to be able to, you know, put food on your table and put a roof over your head.

I want you just to know [01:02:00] if you are in a state where you don't have tenure and you don't have a union. I don't blame you. I don't, you know, but if you are in a position, like, I'm in where your job is protected. and you're not speaking up, then I do blame you. To an extent, because it's also a systematic issue as we know, but I feel like people that have the protection should speak up.

So maybe blaming them isn't the right choice or right phrase that I want to say, but like, if you have the protection, I want you to use it. That's, that's what I'm saying. 

Jess: Yeah, and I can't relate with you guys because I'm in a right to work state. So we don't have tenure here, but I, I understand. I do. I do.

I do get it. I do get it. We, we just don't have tenure. We're not protected, but you know, there's a lot of us that still raise fusses when we need to. But anyway, Janet, This was such a fun episode. I'm so happy you decided to come on. And I feel like the, I had this final question was just like, you know, what can teachers do to help their own knowledge [01:03:00] of reading instruction or what coaching advice can you give?

But I feel like your whole, the whole interview. You were telling us like what books you read and what programs you adopted and what you've spent your money on. And so I feel like that's 1 thing I'm going to do is maybe you can even help me, Janet, like carry a list for our listeners. Like, if they want to kind of get to the knowledge level, but you're at with reading instruction, I feel like so much of this is self taught, which is really, really cool.

Right. And, um, and so, yeah, um. Where can people find you? Like if they want to get in contact with you, they have a question about this episode. Where can they find you? Where's a good way to like reach out to you if they have any questions about anything you had to say? 

Janet: My main place would be Instagram, um, and that's at Janet Nassar Teaching.

So it's just my name, J A N E T. in ASIR teaching. Um, I used to be at Study in SoCal, but I changed it to just be me. And I have an email. It's the same thing. It's [01:04:00] StudyinSoCal at JanetNassar. com. Those are the two best ways. Um, I'm not in love with social media anymore. So I don't have like a TikTok. I have a Facebook that I don't use, but.

Instagram. I'm always there. 

Jess: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It was a real treat getting to hear your story, Trina. Are there any last closing thoughts? Anything you wanted to say before we head out? 

Trina: Just that I love you, Janet. You're on. 

Janet: Yeah, 

Trina: I love you too. 

Janet: Thank you. And Jess, I'm so excited we finally got to like, Kind of meet in person.

Jess: Pretty much. I'm surprised we've never run into each other at like Teachers Pay Teachers conferences. I used to go to these California meetups every year. Oh, I've never been 

Janet: to a TPT conference. Okay. And then when it was finally in California again, that's when I was like going to my cancer battle. So. I couldn't go.

Actually, I think I had just had my hysterectomy because of cancer when the conference [01:05:00] happened. So it was like, I'm not going. Um, and I don't really want to pay the money to fly to another state to go because there's other things I'd rather do with my money. But I know, and you know, I'm three hours from Vegas, like driving.

And 45 minutes flying. So one day, if 

Jess: you ever, if you ever come through, give me a, give me a holler. We'll go out to lunch or something. 

Janet: And I got to meet whimsical hubby. Cause I've been here. So, and Trina, next time I'm in the Bay area, you know, I'm a big San Francisco fan. We're niners people in this house.

So, come on, you gotta make it work. 

Jess: Okay. Okay. Let's wrap it up. Thanks ladies. Bye. 

Bye. Thank you. That's it for today. Thanks for listening, everyone. Please let us know if you want to join in this or any conversation on the podcast, because we have only begun to delve into each 

Trina: topic and we need your voice to do this justice.

Don't forget to go to TeachersShortageCrisis. com to sign the petition and join the movement to save K 12 schooling 

and our [01:06:00] democracy. And remember, we may just be teachers, but we're the only ones who can fix this mess.